In a flippant moment last August, I commented offhand after only a few seconds’ thought that charging admission was one of the dumbest things you can do.
Regarding the rest of the article, the basic problem is too much irrelevant information about how the EPR works and not enough basic information. I suspect the something along the lines of the following was provided:
Nuclear power is really safe because it has a lot of backup systems. A meltdown really isn’t all that likely in the old reactors, and the EPR is even better. It has more redundant systems, and it was all designed by computer. And there’s a four-foot-thick concrete dome instead of a three-foot-thick one. It will be cheaper this time; trust me. It’s different, you know. We’re Americans (even though the reactor was designed in France)! We can do anything if we set our minds to it! And we’re smart, too. We’re good at this.
This is not what people want or need to know. Unfortunately, Patrick Moore is not reading that editorial. I don’t believe he knows what Joe Six-Pack thinks about nuclear power. I don’t believe he’s assessing the real impact of his talks and fixing the weak points. I didn’t see it, but given that editorial, it seems to me like the whole thing is missing the point. Here’s what people want to know about reactors:
There has been a lot of misinformation about nuclear power, spun by zealous conservatives intent on curtailing development of technology–using liberal language. We pro-nuclear people have dropped the ball on this, by not providing this information in the first place. I’m here today to tell you how it works.
During the Manhattan project, the first simple reactors–canisters of uranium metal inside a block of graphite, with a couple of boron rods to reduce the reaction rate when inserted–morphed into high-powered plutonium-239-production reactors with the addition of water-filled channels for cooling, into which uranium metal rods were placed. The first reactor designers knew that there were simpler ways to build a reactor than this, but other designs produced contaminated plutonium that didn’t work in bombs. Later on, the Soviets stole this design, which they converted into a power plant by using water boiled out of the cooling channels to run a steam engine. This type of reactor–literally a bomb factory–was used at Chernobyl, and the basic problem came from the fact that the water interfered with the block of graphite’s effect on the nuclear reaction. When you remove the water, the reaction actually sped up–and very quickly.
Now, it turns out no other reactor design has that characteristic; it’s a problem unique to weapons-grade plutonium production. But that problem scared the hell out of the reactor designers, since it was present in the first systems they had ever worked with, and they started to approach all future reactors as though they were inherently unsafe. In the 1950s to 1970s, they included dozens of backup systems to reduce the number of unknowns, which they simply could not analyze because they didn’t have enough computing power. They did not know what was going to be necessary and what wasn’t, and ended up including many systems “just in case.” That might sound good, but the problem is that operators and maintenance personnel have to work around the unnecessary systems in order to keep critical ones running.
An American-style nuclear power plant is not mechanically complicated at all. It’s basically a tank of water with uranium rods suspended in it; the complicated part is the physics that goes into determining what the geometry and materials are going to be. If you don’t have that computing power, you can simplify the physics–if you’re willing to accept a small probability of the device overheating, and if you’re willing to install backup cooling systems to prevent that from happening.
Importantly, though, if the water drains out of an American-style nuclear reactor, it doesn’t cause a power spike like it does in a Chernobyl-style one, because the water has the same effect on the nuclear reaction as Chernobyl’s block of graphite–and is the coolant. So if the water coolant drains out, the reaction physically cannot occur; the reactor shuts down without any human intervention. It’s foolproof; an American-style nuclear reactor cannot experience a Chernobyl-style accident. It’s physically impossible.
However, without the water, an American-style nuclear reactor can overheat, and the uranium rods can melt and collect in the bottom of the tank. And if you have enough unnecessary backup systems to hinder maintenance and oversight, you can have a cooling system leak drain the water from the reactor.
That’s Three Mile Island in a nutshell. Unfortunately, 95% of the US population doesn’t know the difference between the Chernobyl bomb factory and the rods-in-a-tank design, which was originally used in submarine engines, and people think that Three Mile Island was a less-severe version of Chernobyl, or that we somehow “just missed” another Chernobyl. It’s not a progression; they’re two entirely different physical phenomena.
And the kicker is that we don’t even have to accept the slight probability of another inconsequential Three-Mile-Island-style overheating accident in order to have nuclear power. Computers are capable of analyzing all the variables in a nuclear reactor, so a modern reactor would use complex physics in place of complex engineering and multiple backup systems. If a reactor can be designed to absorb failures using physics, instead of active backup systems, why bother to include components that you know don’t do anything?
Here we come to the other 800-pound gorilla in the nuclear debate: waste. Both of the reactor types that I’ve mentioned use less than 1% of the uranium available to them, meaning that the split atoms are mixed in with both unused fuel and atoms that were supposed to split but actually got bigger (the latter posing the vast majority of the long-term radiation hazard). To more fully use this material–and get rid of the half-used fuel that poses the most danger–we have a few options. We can directly run it through a more efficient reactor, like Canadian designs that use the rods-in-a-tank approach (except the tank is full of heavy water, not ordinary water), we can remove the split atoms and some of the unused uranium, then run it through again up to twice (as the French and Japanese do), or we can use an entirely different type of reactor that is capable of using it all.
This reactor type is known as an Integral Fast Reactor (or IFR), and is an assembly of uranium rods suspended in a tank of molten sodium. The sodium does not have an effect on the reaction at all, so the reaction is more efficient and can consume literally anything heavier than 89 on the periodic table (uranium is 92). IFRs consume approximately 20% of their fuel at a time instead of 1%; five cycles of removing the split atoms and placing the rest of the fuel back into the reactor completely consumes the fuel, plus the long-lived waste. Unfortunately, there are no operating IFRs in the United States today because of anti-nuclear pressure.
And finally, to cover one of the most pervasive myths about nuclear power, you don’t have to be rich or a genius to safely operate a nuclear power plant. Physics works, whether you want it to or not. A safe reactor is safe, even under massive abuse. Engineers in 1986 tried to cause a meltdown in an IFR prototype, and they couldn’t do it; it wasn’t their personality that made hot metal expand. Osama bin Laden and Homer Simpson could have been at the controls and nothing would have happened.
I know that’s an awful talk, and it’s not very clear and uses too many technical terms and not enough soundbites, but the final product should be something along those lines. Peopl
e are worried about accidents and waste, with proliferation a distant third, not how many jobs a reactor will bring to somewhere else. We’ve got to press it: nuclear power is a good idea in the abstract, just like solar and wind. There’s no risk in reducing risk; nuclear power, especially waste-eating reactors, is better than what we’ve currently got and should thus be used. Anything that does not address the core concerns of the general public is a waste of time and helps bring us closer to the train wreck that we’ve got coming if we don’t shape up as a political movement.
There were a couple of other things that he didn’t do, as well: he picked his audience very, very poorly. You don’t see Al Gore get heckled during his global warming presentation; that’s because he has a network that gets his supporters and neutral people out to the presentations and avoids his opponents: phone trees, word-of-mouth, email, and such. Bringing people to rallies/lectures/talks/presentations is such an unbelievably basic part of organizing that it’s inexcusable for someone as experienced as Moore to screw it up. If you do get a heckler, as a supporter of the speaker in the audience, Jason Salzman suggests starting a chant. I would suggest “no gas, no oil, no coal, no choice;” it applies almost everywhere, and is easy for a lot of people to pick up quickly. I however wouldn’t suggest a Reaganesque response (e.g., “ah, shut up”) on the part of the speaker; you can only get away with that if you’re popular, which we aren’t. We might have to start thinking about ourselves as similar to the women’s suffrage movement in about 1865; we’re unpopular and people might not want to hear what we’re saying, but we’ve got a good case, and we’ve got to keep pressing to the goal. It’s going to take a long time. It might not happen in any of our lifetimes. And it won’t happen unless we start kicking butt. But if we do, the results will be profound, long-lasting, and positive.
Let’s get going.





Bill McEwen’s column is hardly a reflection against Patrick Moore. There are so many examples of blind prejudice in McEwen’s Fresno Bee column that I wondered if McEwen hadn’t, one time in a past life in the 1950s, resisted school integration somewhere ’round Little Rock.
Perhaps, in an ideal world, where lots of things come for free, Patrick Moore should have spoken for $5 or for free.
The problem is that plane tickets and hotels cost money…and renting the hall isn’t cheap either, especially in California where real estate costs are so high. Those real estate costs naturally are passed along to whoever needs to rent a theater for an evening.
I would hardly take the comments in McEwen’s column as an intelligent discourse on the future of nuclear energy in California. Just as I hardly take Gov. Orval Faubus’s opinions as intelligent discourse on the subject of school integration…despite the fact that Faubus was seemingly “qualified” as a schoolteacher!
Blind prehjudice comes in all shapes and flavors, and Californians are hardly immune from it!
The problem is that Bill McEwen is at about the 70th percentile for nuclear issues rationality. We might think he’s illiterate about the issue, and he is, but so is 95% of the US population. This man is attempting to get the reasons why nobody is listening to Patrick Moore out in the open, and we need to listen to him–or we can keep saying the same old things that nobody wants or needs to hear, and keep getting nowhere. Nobody that I’ve ever talked to wants to hear about jobs, or property taxes, or defense-in-depth. They want to hear that reactors aren’t going to blow up and make their city uninhabitable and that waste is a solvable problem with current technology.
My point about charging admission was that it shut out the poor and served as a disincentive for the uninterested. $10 is a lot of money, especially to your average socialist who thinks that money is a tool used by The Privilege-Elite to keep the little guy in the rat race. People probably think that’s a fundraiser; you know and I know that he needs to cover his expenses and he’s not pocketing anything, but political activists, especially unpopular ones, do not charge admission.
I guess my central question is “why give this talk?” Who is he trying to reach, and with what? And if he’s not prepared to pay for the privilege of having others hear his opinions, he shouldn’t do it. There are a lot of ancillary costs, but if he’s not prepared to take them on, he shouldn’t speak anywhere until he’s ready–and has a clear idea of what he’s trying to do with every syllable that comes out of his mouth.
McEwen’s column shows how much of a disconnect there is between what Patrick Moore is saying and the rest of the country. If he won’t dramatically revise his talks–or at least think about why it is necessary to give them–people like you and me are going to have to start raising hell. We’re going to have to anyway, it’s just a matter of when–and I’m inclined to think that should happen sooner rather than later.
This is a classic Catch-22 criticism, if you rise to it.
- Case 1: Charge entrance. Get the Bill McEwen line “why should I pay to hear your propaganda?”
- Case 2: Don’t charge. Get the “Who’s paying for this? must be nuclear-industry sponsored propaganda” line.
Moore’s charging was reasonable and defensible. No need to take McEwen’s bait.
Joffan:
If they even have to think about the money involved, it raises suspicions. Better to let everyone in free; it’ll never occur to 99.9% of them (those that haven’t rented a hall before).
You know and I know that the amount of the fee was reasonable in the context of Moore needing to cover his costs. But if the rationale doesn’t appear reasonable to the audience, it doesn’t matter if it’s 50 cents–they still won’t come and they’ll think he’s trying to make a buck off them in the process.
There’s also the issue of who the target audience is. We can never please the real loons, but if we make a practice of charging admission, neutral people won’t care enough to come–but anti-nuclear people will pay to get in, and we’re going to end up with situation after situation of 75% of the audience hating the speaker’s guts (which is what happened in Fresno). If I understand you correctly, this would require Moore to educate the intended audience about how much he needs to pay for the hall, and his airfare, hotel room, and food. All correct…but it’s too many things to convince people about at once. Somebody other than the audience needs to eat the costs at some point.
Of your Catch-22, I think option 2 is still preferable. Not a whole lot of people are going to think about it, and those who do aren’t the people we’re really targeting.
Is McEwen really baiting us? I honestly think that this man is pretty much the mainstream of California opinion, really more open than most. If we can make the case about accidents and waste, it’ll be a tough sell, but we alienate these people when we respond with hostility towards their serious (high, but serious) standards of proof, which we know we can meet.
I generally agree with the author’s comments, but I strongly disagree to call Chernobyl reactor “a bomb factory”. Here is why:
- The Chernobyl reactor was inherently safe when run at power level above 200MWe, below this power, the reactivity coefficient was slightly positive, making it unsafe to operate in this power levels. If they would use slightly more enriched uranium the problem would not exist.
- Because of the higher uranium enrichment levels, the today’s reactors are inherently safer. It’s not only Americans who did the improvement; the Soviet reactors have the same safety features as the American reactors. So does the French (Areva’s) design and others.
- The safety system could be overridden in Chernobyl. Today, the reactor safety system is designed such way that it cannot be disabled at any circumstances. Or in other words, if it gets somehow disabled, it results in reactor self-shutdown.
- Even the today’s reactors could become promptly critical (principle of atomic bomb), and the statement that drainage of water from the reactor core would stop the reaction is not really accurate. It significantly limits the rate of power increase, but the functionality of safety system needs to be satisfied.
I’m strongly pro-nuclear, but I don’t like calling Russians the “bastards” who operates the “nuclear bomb reactors”. Not only America made an improvement in reactor safety design, the whole nuclear industry did too.
Marek
Marek:
1. Chernobyl was an RBMK, and RBMKs are scaled-up weapons-production reactors (bomb factories). I’m not implying that it could explode like a bomb; only that the RBMK is radically different from civilian power reactors.
2. It’s acceptably safe and probabilistically safe at high power, but not inherently safe (since an inherently safe reactor can restore itself to a safer state upon a failure). Most reactors are safe if operated as specified, and the RBMK is no exception.
3. Raising the enrichment level, along with the many other safety improvements made since Chernobyl, has made another Chernobyl essentially impossible–but has not made the RBMK inherently safe. It is not. It is neither inherently safe nor inherently unsafe, but uses of course an entirely different approach to safety (PRA).
4. American nuclear operators did not have to make safety improvements after Chernobyl; the RBMK was banned in the United States in 1950 and none were ever built here.
5. Draining water from the core of a light-water reactor does in fact stop the reaction. VVERs have this feature and RBMKs do not because VVERs are light-water reactors and RBMKs are not. It’s not a “Russian issue;” it’s an RBMK issue.
6. Chernobyl-type power excursions can occur only in Chernobyl-type reactors (not VVERs), and even prompt criticality does not mean explosive disassembly of the configuration.
7. I never called Russians any names or implied that their actions transcended the laws of physics, or implied that RBMKs are atomic bombs. They aren’t, but their operating characteristics are a consequence of the production of weapons-grade plutonium. And no, there’s not anything uniquely Russian about the RBMK; it was originally designed in the United States during the Manhattan Project.
Stewart:
1. I still don’t think that calling RBMK reactors a “bomb factories” is appropriate. There are plenty of other reactors in the word used for production of missile material. The fact that America doesn’t use the civilian reactors for this purpose, but the military or research reactors doesn’t make it any better than Russia. Simply, using any type of reactor for production of isotopes for nuclear weapons is wrong. In fact, I’m would be happier if US-NAVY did use the civilian plants instead, because the US-NRC would watch and limit their activities.
2. The Chernobyl accident has nothing to do with the fact that it was designed to produce plutonium. The Chernobyl reactor was also used as a demonstration for students (used a toy to play with), and somehow over a time the operators of this reactor became so ignorant, they didn’t respect the basic principles and obey the safety rules. There was a clear set of rules how to operate this facility and the accident did happen, because operators simply ignore them.
3. There is 13 RBMK reactors built, and after the Chernobyl accident, all of them went through extensive safety improvements to make the Chernobyl impossible to repeat.
4. Yes, American nuclear operators had to made improvements after the Chernobyl, so did the other nations. But not because the reactor was not safe, but because Chernobyl had shown that simply laying down the rules of what you can and what you cannot do is simply not enough. The design of the safety system has to be such, making it practically impossible to disable. The US-NRC would never be so tough on operators as it is now, if there wouldn’t be concerns from the public about the reactor safety, initiated by the Chernobyl accident.
5. At the time when RBMK was designed, there wasn’t any plant proven design. They simply built what they had on drawing boards, and the operational experience had shown that PWR’s (Russian VVER) are the most reliable. I accept they built it to make the Plutonium, but that wasn’t a cause of the accident. The PWR’s are most commonly used in US, simply because it was a proven design from submarines.
I believe you are doing the right thing informing people about the importance of nuclear energy in our present and future. And truth, you newer called Russians any names, but from reading the article I’ve got the impression that the America is the only nation having the safe reactors and Russia is bad, because they built the Chernobyl. The significance of all of this is that Chernobyl had shown an important lesson to every nation, and today’s generation reactors are designed such, to make the Chernobyl practically impossible to repeat.
Marek
Stewart:
And one more thing regarding the incore LOCA in PWR. If you have a report analysing the postulated event accidents after the complete core meltdown with no absorbers present, I’d like to see that. Please email it to me at zigomarek@yahoo.com.
Thank you,
Marek Zigin
Marek:
1. LWR-based nuclear power plants cannot be used for production of weapons-grade plutonium. On the other hand, the design parameters of the RBMK were dictated by weapons-grade plutonium production without the use of plutonium separation. That is why I refer to RBMKs as bomb factories; the civilian reactors operating in the United States could not be used for weapons-grade plutonium production. BTW, the US Navy controls neither civilian power reactors nor nuclear weapons, so they couldn’t do it if itwere possible.
2. The Chernobyl reactor would never have been designed the way it was had it not been based off plutonium-production reactors; thus, the accident was influenced by weapons-grade plutonium production requirements. Had the operators acted correctly, it would also never have happened, but you can’t say that a VVER would experience a power excursion under those circumstances.
3. I am aware that they did; however, no RBMKs were ever built in the US, since the design was banned in 1950. Thus, similar improvements were not made to American reactors because the technical problems that caused Chernobyl did not exist in American reactors. However, it would be silly not to adopt operator training improvements that were made, and those were adopted, and again, the situation could have been reversed, with Russia building exclusively VVERs and having a stellar safety record and American utilities building RBMKs. But that doesn’t detract from the fact that RBMKs (whoever builds them) have safety problems that (1) were caused by a specification to produce weapons-grade plutonium, (2) can be mitigated, and (3) don’t apply to VVERs.
4. Again, there is no way to cause a Chernobyl-style accident in a VVER, so American reactor operators would not have to change their operating procedures to prevent a Chernobyl-style accident.
5. Their intention to produce weapons-grade plutonium obviously did not cause the accident, but the design compromises that were necessitated by this requirement did.
I’ll mention in future drafts of that talk that a Chernobyl-style accident is impossible in VVERs. Point taken.
And unfortunately, I do not have a report on worst-case PWR LOCA postulated accidents.